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Post by Aquablast on Jul 27, 2014 16:36:37 GMT -5
Smogon recently announced that Mega Gengar was banned from Ubers. I know this sounds crazy but it is true.
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Post by soulred12 on Jul 27, 2014 16:50:59 GMT -5
It's not banned from Ubers yet, it's just being suspected and discussed, though a lot of people really want it gone because of Shadow Tag. It's a big deal because it's not "entirely luck-based" like Swagger, Moody, and OHKO moves were, and banning a pokemon for being too overpowering has never been done in Ubers before because it was always seen as the "you take what you get" tier. Like "if you think something's too strong, too bad, it's Ubers so just deal with it."
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Wolf Prince
Administrator
It's a sad and cruel world after all.
Posts: 1,235
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Post by Wolf Prince on Jul 27, 2014 17:14:59 GMT -5
Well...goes to show you how Gengar was overlooked in gen 1 because Poison and Ghost type moves were physical and Gengar was special oriented. Look at it's progression, after the physical-Special split in gen 4 it became one of the most popular pokemon and now in gen 6 it's even being considered to be banned from ubers.
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Post by dragonarbock on Jul 27, 2014 17:18:33 GMT -5
This sounds completely ridiculous. It's Ubers. What, is there going to be an Ultra Ubers tier or something now? Honestly, I've never had a problem with mega Gengar, Shadow Tag or not. If it ko's one of your mons, then you just switch in a better counter. Honestly, mega Kangaskhan is a lot worse, with the brokenness of double flinch chance.
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zerocielX
Moderator
kawaii desu (◕‿◕✿)
Posts: 1,441
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Post by zerocielX on Jul 27, 2014 18:20:15 GMT -5
Banning a Pokemon from a banlist. That's pretty funny lol
BUT, this could be the first step into making Ubers an actual tier, and not a banlist. (I do remember them mentioning something among those lines some time ago)
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Post by soulred12 on Jul 27, 2014 20:38:00 GMT -5
A lot of people are concerned with violating the "integrity" of Ubers.
Others (who I've dealt with when posting on the discussion thread) just seem really angry that Shadow Tag exists and want it gone regardless of what it means for the tier.
I really don't care, I just want a fun metagame. Though to me, I always thought keeping everything, even "unfair" things, was part of the charm of Ubers in the first place. I am perfectly fine with getting rid of something luck-based like Swagger but Shadow Tag is just a "too good" type thing, not an RNG thing.
Also, the complaint with Mega Gengar isn't that it's too powerful or something. It's that it can trap and kill anything it wants with shadow tag + destiny bond/perish song, thereby freeing the way for another sweeper to dominate. For example, you've got Mega Gengar and Kyogre on your team, but the opponent has Palkia. You get Mega Gengar in on Palkia, and force it to kill itself through a fast Destiny Bond. Then Kyogre is free to sweep.
I'm not saying that's a good enough complaint, just that that's what people who want it gone are complaining about.
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Post by Rychu725 on Jul 28, 2014 4:34:02 GMT -5
I don't think mega-Gengar should be banned simply because Ubers is where all the banned Pokemon live. If he does get banned though, I think Arceus should be banned then. Also soulred12 I actually don't think the should have banned Swagger completely. I think they should've banned the combination of Swagger and T-Wave on one Pokemon.
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Post by soulred12 on Jul 29, 2014 15:12:59 GMT -5
I don't think mega-Gengar should be banned simply because Ubers is where all the banned Pokemon live. If he does get banned though, I think Arceus should be banned then. This is basically THE anti-ban argument, that if MGar gets banned it will set new precedent to start banning things that are simply overpowered rather than only things that are luck-based. Also this whole "ban from the banlist" thing makes me think of that South Park episode where they're in hell: (Apologies if this offends anyone but it's just too perfect for this. It's south park so viewer discretion yadda yadda) Also soulred12 I actually don't think the should have banned Swagger completely. I think they should've banned the combination of Swagger and T-Wave on one Pokemon. It was mainly prankster Swagger that was unfun and luck-based enough (it forces a literal even-odds coin flip almost every turn) to warrant a ban. (T-Wave just made it even worse.) But, Smogon hates complex bans, so it went with a simple ban that had very little collateral damage (since few things without prankster ever used swagger, and still its only reason for existence is to turn the game into too much of coin flips whenever it is used).
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Post by Rychu725 on Jul 30, 2014 0:04:12 GMT -5
That's understandable soulred12. I'm not as mad at the Swagger ban as I am that Baton Pass is pretty much banned. It was gimmicky sure, but I don't believe it should've been suppressed this much.
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Post by Corporal Levi on Aug 7, 2014 13:02:07 GMT -5
Starting with the Moody suspect in Gen 5, the Ubers tier has progressed from a mere banlist to a genuine, competitive metagame. There are bans in Ubers to encourage this, as opposed to a mindless slugfest without respect to actual strategy. If you're looking for a metagame without restrictions, you could always play hackmons, which takes that up a notch (which is actually pretty fun, for the record). I didn't bother participating in these reqs because I felt as if the LC suspect was more important, but I'm personally supportive of Gengarite's ban. It entirely promotes match-up dependent games, causing lopsided match-ups to be even more lopsided. The problem with Mega Gengar is that it blatantly prevents counterplay; it is essentially guaranteed to remove key Pokemon from the opposing team. Mega Gengar is objectively uncounterable because to counter a Pokemon, you need to be able to switch in on it. The difference between Mega Gengar and other trapping pokes is that Mega Gengar simply has a far, far better match-up against most of the metagame than, say, Gothitelle or Dugtrio (although Gothitelle is actually really good as well from what I understand). Mega Gengar's ability to completely remove an opposing Pokemon from play is absolutely ridiculous, rendering an entire playstyle in stall all but unplayable; this is extremely unhealthy for the development of the metagame in a tier which already has so much brute force. The reason stall is hurt so badly by a possibly 1-for-1 trade whereas the offense team that is carrying Mega Gengar is not is because stall relies on defensive synergy, meaning if one Pokemon is taken down, the entire team is left to crumble against a single key threat, whereas offensive teams can make do with losing a single Pokemon to play towards a win condition, thus why suicide leads and lures are viable and prominent. The very existence of Mega Gengar causes games to often be won or lost from team preview, even against otherwise well-built teams; Mega Gengar is able to force these situations much, much more often than any other Pokemon in the game of Pokemon. Mega Gengar is an uncompetitive Pokemon and creates an uncompetitive metagame.
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Post by soulred12 on Aug 11, 2014 22:15:03 GMT -5
I got my reqs for the Gengarite suspect test! (first reqs ever!) Now to figure out how I will vote lol.
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Post by Corporal Levi on Aug 11, 2014 23:13:53 GMT -5
The voting thread should be up soon under Blind Voting; if this is your first suspect thread, you may not have access to it, so you'll probably need to PM hugen when the time comes. The instructions should be really clear from there. Congrats on reqs by the way EDIT: jk the suspect ends on the 24th/25th? You'll probably have to wait until then. I had no idea they're giving so much time for such a simple suspect @.@
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