Wolf Prince
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Post by Wolf Prince on Dec 10, 2013 23:40:09 GMT -5
Base Stats:Hp:105 Attack125 Defense100 Sp Atk60 Sp Def100 Speed100 Total:590 ~~~Ability~~~Parental Bond Parent and child attack together. Tell me, what are your thoughts on this duo of monsters? Smogon is currently discussing on if it should be banned or if it shouldn't, so how about we discuss it too?(Although i already know what several think).
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xeno
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Post by xeno on Dec 11, 2013 9:12:05 GMT -5
What are some common seat for Mega Kangha? 590 is a pretty large number for base stats in OU. I dont really battle much so how is he used? Is he a tank? A sweeper?
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Wolf Prince
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Post by Wolf Prince on Dec 11, 2013 14:18:37 GMT -5
Most common sets are tanks/bulky sweepers. It's ability Parental bond makes it attack twice with second attack dealing half damage, and people take advantage of this with the move power up punch which rises it's attack twice(Basically swords dance with damage).And for obvious reasons Return/Frustration with 105 power as it's greatest STAB move(Parental bond makes it 157/158 power). But anyway if i recall correctly the sets i've encountered:
First Set Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite Ability: Scrappy/Early Bird/Inner Focus(Hidden) Parental Bond(Mega) EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP Adamant Nature - Fake Out - Sucker Punch - Return - Power-Up Punch Priority on this monster is really threatening, having 2 priority moves out of which 1 has good STAB and the other great power. Fake out allows a safe megaevolution as well as really harming sweepers such as Haxorus Gyarados and Dragonite.
Second set Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite Ability: Scrappy/Early Bird/Inner Focus(hidden) Parental Bond(Mega) EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Speed Adamant Nature - Earthquake/Fire Punch/Drain Punch - Sucker Punch/Crunch - Return/Body Slam - Power-Up Punch Different to previous set this one is more of an all out offensive, sacrificing a priority move(If not both) for cold power. Seeing as the most common counters for Mega Kangaskhan have been Rocky Helm Ferrothorn, Rocky Helm Skarmory and Will o Whisp Cofafrigus. Replacing sucker punch for Crunch gives a safe hit to COfafrigus, while EQ/Fire punch/Drain Punch give it a better hit against the SKarmory/Ferrothorn(Drain punch restoring the health it lost from rocky helm/iron barb).
Perhaps i should add common sets, checks and counters to the first post.
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zerocielX
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Post by zerocielX on Dec 11, 2013 14:21:17 GMT -5
Who the hell voted no?
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Wolf Prince
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Post by Wolf Prince on Dec 11, 2013 14:39:41 GMT -5
Me ._. is there something wrong with having a different opinion?
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zerocielX
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Post by zerocielX on Dec 11, 2013 15:19:09 GMT -5
Its fine if you have a perfectly legitimate reason for doing so, and not just for the sake of disagreeing.
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Wolf Prince
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Post by Wolf Prince on Dec 11, 2013 15:29:50 GMT -5
Dusclops,Dusknoir,Bannette, Misdreviouse, Cofafrigouse. Used Will o Whisp.
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zerocielX
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Post by zerocielX on Dec 11, 2013 15:38:39 GMT -5
I take it you didn't even bother to look a the thread.
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Post by Corporal Levi on Dec 11, 2013 15:53:42 GMT -5
A Pokemon, even if it's suspected for its sweeping capabilities, doesn't have to be entirely uncounterable to be deemed Uber; it merely has to vastly overcentralize the metagame. This was the case for gen 4 Salamence; although it had its hard counters, these were few and far between, and Salamence's mere existence forced every moderately competitive team to run at least one of these counters. Of course, the decision to ban Salamence was still a very controversial one, but I find Kangaskhan to be far more difficult to deal with than Salamence. Salamence's main weakness was how easily it was revenge-killed, but Kangaskhan suffers no such problems due to its statistically superior bulk, lack of double weaknesses, lack of life orb recoil, and arguably most importantly, access to an extremely powerful priority move. Pokebank Kangaskhan is especially difficult to take out thanks to access to Drain Punch, giving it a form of recovery that would normally not be a huge deal were it not backed up by pseudo-STAB and a possibly boosted base 125 attack stat. Even when discussing counters, however, Kangaskhan is clearly very potent. That people are running such otherwise questionable movesets as Rocky Helmet Garchomp solely to deal with Kangaskhan is a testament to how severely Kangaskhan is affecting the metagame. With a solid arsenal of coverage moves to back up some very powerful STAB moves, physically defensive Sableye and Skarmory stand out as the only Pokemon available in OU that can repeatedly switch in on Kangaskhan. When discussing a Pokemon's ability to sweep, one could reasonably put Mega Kangaskhan on equal footing as Extremekiller Arceus. I'm not going to bother going into Kangaskhan's numerous strengths any further than I already have because I'm sure we're already aware how powerful it can be. Dusclops,Dusknoir,Bannette, Misdreviouse, Cofafrigouse. Used Will o Whisp. Keep in mind that Mega Banette and to a lesser extent Cofagrigus are the only Pokemon on that list that won't induce huge amounts of scorn when used in OU. I know from experience that Dusknoir is really awful, even in RU. In addition, none of those Pokemon will enjoy taking a Crunch (or Sucker Punch if Kangaskhan is running Substitute).
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Wolf Prince
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Post by Wolf Prince on Dec 11, 2013 16:14:35 GMT -5
I take it you didn't even bother to look a the thread. What makes you think such?
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xeno
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Post by xeno on Dec 11, 2013 16:30:01 GMT -5
Great post Levi, very informative. And my opinion on this is pretty open at this point. I decided to go ahead and vote no. Both of those sets are EXTREMELY offensively oriented. I feel like a Breloom or a Scizor would be able to take 1 hit and then wreck M-Kanga. Also, Sableye is a huge counter with a Prankster Will-O-Whisp. Pokemon like M-Kanga have to be outplayed. That doesn't make them broken.
However, if M-Kanga becomes so common that every Trainer has to build a team around facing a M-Kanga, then that would put it in Uber.
*all stated in my not-very-informed and humble opinion*
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Steelgrassify
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Post by Steelgrassify on Dec 11, 2013 16:52:47 GMT -5
Personally I'm in the middle with Kangaskhan being banned, because I feel it is a bit broken. Sure you can send in ghost types, but Sucker Punch is there for a reason. It breaks focus sashes and tends to be quite hard to deal with. Now, with proper prediction you can get ride of it fairly easily, but I've seen some things that are making me lean towards the ban option. I watched a video where 1 guy on showdown made a team with Kangaskhan and won 7 straight battles and got to the 2200+ ranking in OU. At this point I'd like to keep it in OU until we get Pokebank released, but it certainly is not something to take lightly.
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Post by Corporal Levi on Dec 11, 2013 17:33:00 GMT -5
Great post Levi, very informative. And my opinion on this is pretty open at this point. I decided to go ahead and vote no. Both of those sets are EXTREMELY offensively oriented. I feel like a Breloom or a Scizor would be able to take 1 hit and then wreck M-Kanga. Also, Sableye is a huge counter with a Prankster Will-O-Whisp. Pokemon like M-Kanga have to be outplayed. That doesn't make them broken. However, if M-Kanga becomes so common that every Trainer has to build a team around facing a M-Kanga, then that would put it in Uber. *all stated in my not-very-informed and humble opinion* You do make some fair points, but Breloom and Scizor are questionable switch-ins to Kangaskhan. 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 292-346 (111.4 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 121-144 (35.2 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 160-189 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 162-192 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO If standard offensive Breloom attempts to switch into Kangaskhan's Return, it is cleanly OHKOed. If standard CB Scizor attempts to switch into Kangaskhan's Return, it is promptly KOed by Earthquake over half the time after Stealth Rock and always after Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes. CB Scizor's Bullet Punch is unable to OHKO Kangaskhan after Stealth Rock, even if Bullet Punch crits. Mega Scizor with Superpower, however, is able to beat Mega Kangaskhan variants that don't run Substitute or Fire Punch (Substitute variants will be able to take advantage of the defense drops from Superpower). Sableye is also a counter to non-Substitute Mega Kangaskhan. Two counters is still not very many, of course. In comparison, most common Kyogre variants are countered by Latias, Water Absorb Quagsire/Seismitoad, Storm Drain Gastrodon, and Ludicolo out of the Pokemon that are available in OU. Regarding the concept of outplaying Mega Kangaskhan, the issue with that is how difficult it is. Without Sableye and/or one of a handful of Pokemon that can counter Kangaskhan only if it lacks a specific move, one of your Pokemon is almost always taken out because even if the Kangaskhan user mispredicts, it still has defensive base stats that surpass that of Celebi to fall back on. Offensive Pokemon that aren't Ghost-type take massive damage from even a resisted Return, and even the Ghost-types are usually quickly taken out by Sucker Punch or Crunch. Defensive Pokemon will be hard-pressed to withstand Kangaskhan's sheer power; a combination of Power Up Punch and Return decimates even physically defensive Hippowdon after Stealth Rock. Mega Kangaskhan is, if I recall correctly, the most popular Mega Pokemon in both Standard and Pokebank OU right now. Teams that lack a solid counter or revenge-killer for Mega Kangaskhan will be hard-pressed to do well in the current metagame because without these specific Pokemon, Kangaskhan is incredibly difficult to stop.
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Wolf Prince
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Post by Wolf Prince on Dec 11, 2013 20:24:31 GMT -5
Aside from resisting, why don't we take in hand revenge killers? What can easily revenge kill mega kangaskhan? Let's think of the best option Mega LUcario:
Physical mega lucario can really make some damage, while special mega lucario fails to OHKO revenge kill it. In the inverse say mega kangaskhan already has power up punch up it won't deal enough to OHKO with sucker punch.
After doing some calculations Mega Kang can't get easily OHKO'd revenge killed, unless it is under 75%, considering this the best choice to counter meassure mega Kang is a powerful fighting type pokemon and hope you have hazzards decently up. Yet to my greatest surprise:
Unless Darmanitan has a choice band(COnsidering some common Darmanitan sets are Band or Scarfed) it can't OHKO with superpower, while Kang has a chance of OHKOing both with sucker punch after +2. The several calculations i made have made me really change my point of view, seeing as how hard it actually is to revenge kill mega kang. So yeah vote change.
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Post by Corporal Levi on Dec 11, 2013 21:14:11 GMT -5
Aside from resisting, why don't we take in hand revenge killers? What can easily revenge kill mega kangaskhan? Let's think of the best option Mega LUcario: Physical mega lucario can really make some damage, while special mega lucario fails to OHKO revenge kill it. In the inverse say mega kangaskhan already has power up punch up it won't deal enough to OHKO with sucker punch. After doing some calculations Mega Kang can't get easily OHKO'd revenge killed, unless it is under 75%, considering this the best choice to counter meassure mega Kang is a powerful fighting type pokemon and hope you have hazzards decently up. Yet to my greatest surprise: Unless Darmanitan has a choice band(COnsidering some common Darmanitan sets are Band or Scarfed) it can't OHKO with superpower, while Kang has a chance of OHKOing both with sucker punch after +2. The several calculations i made have made me really change my point of view, seeing as how hard it actually is to revenge kill mega kang. So yeah vote change. 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 222-262 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 393-463 (111.6 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO Building upon the second half of your post, I would like to mention that Kangaskhan's Return OHKOs Mega Charizard X 93.75% of the time after Stealth Rock, and always OHKOs Darmanitan regardless of hazards. Regarding revenge-killers, those who are able to revenge-kill a +2 Kangaskhan are more or less limited to faster fighting types. Of these, none of them have any form of recovery except Virizion with Giga Drain (which it would not be able to use safely were it facing Kangaskhan). None of these faster fighting types will enjoy taking a Return, or, in the case of Terrakion, Lucario, and Cobalion, a Power Up Punch followed by a Sucker Punch (Cobalion can actually survive this combination, but to be brutally honest, Cobalion isn't very good), so they truly are limited solely to revenge-killing Kangaskhan.
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